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R.Belmont puts foot in mouth

6/11/2010 6:57:09 PM

By RetroRalph

Some weeks ago a user emailed me a link to the MAMEWORLD forums where "legendary" MAME developer R.Belmont posted some critique of RetroCopy.

R.Belmont, never one to shy away from showing his ignorance, goes on to say :-

"Regarding Retrocopy: it's a very nice end-user product with a unique UI (and he'd probably make a killing if that UI were usable as a front end to launch other emulators), but based on the testable performance they use "accuracy" the way ZSNES/ePSXe do ("fast and runs all games, but for God's sake don't look at how we achieve that"), not the way MAME/bsnes/ReGen/Kega Fusion do ("actually works the way the hardware does"). Kega Fusion is still a bettter SMS and Genesis/Megadrive emulator, and NEStopia and Nintendulator are generally more accurate for NES."

I'd like to know where Mr Belmont gets his facts from to form his conclusions. I'm guessing it's somewhere close to the volcano where Frodo dropped the ring.

What makes a "better" emulator is user opinion so I'm not going to bother arguing that, but his accuracy claims are ridiculous. RetroCopy is the only documented completely cycle accurate SMS/GG emulator out there. And it is the only Sega-E emulator at cycle accuracy. The NES accuracy rivals the emulators he mentions, at least at the base level (RC doesn't emulate as many mappers or peripherals yet).

When it comes to Mega Drive emulation, I am sure that RetroCopy runs slightly less games than Fusion does, but it also implements features Fusion doesn't when it comes to base level accuracy (due to cycle accurate Genesis VDP). The reasons why some developers are "upset" at RetroCopy and look at every opportunity to bad mouth it is obvious. They are jealous.

The problem, Mr Belmont, when you mainly spend your time sitting on forums high-fiving yourself for work you did 10 years ago in MAME is that you lose touch with the community you are purportedly a part of. Maybe spend a bit more time retooling your programming skillset than giving opinions based on fantasy.

You can read the original posting here :-
MameWorld Forums

21 responses to R.Belmont puts foot in mouth

Sasha wrote:

6/12/2010 6:24:30 AM

I love Retrocopy, and 100% sure what in one day Retrocopy show true power.

maux wrote:

6/12/2010 5:17:33 PM

with you all the way Ralph!

Entrax wrote:

6/12/2010 9:49:00 PM

way to go dude right on keep up the good work

panzeroceania wrote:

6/18/2010 4:11:28 PM

if you really want to prove it to him you should go open source like most emulators out there.

RetroRalph wrote:

6/18/2010 8:41:24 PM

panzeroceania wrote:

if you really want to prove it to him you should go open source like most emulators out there.

Well you don't need to "go open source" to prove accuracy. Is the SMS/NES/MEGADRIVE console open source? I just find it quite funny that people that work on MAME like to use the accuracy criticism when MAME is as full of hacks to run games as ZSNES was in 1999.

And besides MAME/MESS, I can't really recall any other popular open source emulators that have improved greatly since they were open sourced.

Project 64
1964
ZSNES
SNES9x
Ninendulator
Nestopia
MEKA

All stagnant.

Emulators are too high level to have people work on them in any great fashion. Once the main cooks leave the kitchen it's pretty much over.

panzeroceania wrote:

6/19/2010 5:40:27 PM

there are plenty of great open source emulators out there.

the reason I mentioned it, is if people could see your code, they wouldn't have to just take your word for it that there aren't any hacks in your emulator either. It'd just be a matter of proof, nothing more, you could still license it for control but show people that you are for real.

I'm not saying that you aren't I'm just saying that it would help with all the naysayers.

RetroRalph wrote:

6/19/2010 10:27:40 PM

Yes it could prove to them the designs I used. However open sourcing RC isn't going to bring me or most of the users any benefits at this stage so I don't do it. People can either take my word for the accuracy claims or they can run development software on it and see. You can look at something like Flubbas VDP test that fails spectacularly on Fusion to see how accurate it is. People like to bandy about things said by Steve Snake on forums time to time about his accuracy, but he never really talks about it in his documentation like I do.

Going to the arcade stuff, my System 1 emulator has proper emulation of the clocks at the cycle level (I run at the system clock which is 20MHz), including the counting mechanism with the main Z80 which alternates its speed based on the M1 pin (my Z80 emulator has cycle accurate pins, it's designed like real hardware in software). All this is in RC that MAME doesn't have, so there are BIG differences between RetroCopy that is accuracy focused and pretty much nearly everything else out there.

Given some of the features coming down the pipeline it forever may not be open sourced but merely passed to developers that want to work on it when I don't want to. I guess my point is open source isn't some magic bullet that solves all the problems, if it was MAME wouldn't be being beaten by my work would it?

panzeroceania wrote:

6/20/2010 2:13:56 AM

to clarify, I'm not accusing you of anything, I'm just saying that might quiet the naysayers, I do think that testroms are a good tool also.

panzeroceania wrote:

6/20/2010 2:15:25 AM

I also wasn't saying that Open Source would make it perfect, I just meant that it would show everyone what you've got.

RetroRalph wrote:

6/20/2010 3:25:26 AM

It wouldn't show everyone what I've got, it would show a minority of developers the secrets of a successful application.

MAME is open source yet you have developers like R Belmont stating that MAME is all about accuracy when it has hundreds of hacks. Or byuu stating bsnes is cycle accurate when the PPU isn't. It doesn't stop people from making any claim they want and having non technical people believe them.

MarshMellow wrote:

6/26/2010 1:46:27 AM

I dont understand these open source zealots. You look at what retrocopy is and what these other open source projects are and its like night and day (my opinion). Just keep going with what your doing Ralph, its different and I like it.

panzeroceania wrote:

6/26/2010 4:01:44 PM

I'm no zealot, heh.

I think it's interesting, so you guys think that if you release the source code that somehow retrocopy will become worse? how? you still are the owner of the emulator and site, it wouldn't change at all. it would be exactly the same.

so what's the downside?

so what if people know your "secrets" do you honestly think they'll copy you? and if they do, then isn't that a sign of flattery?

I don't see the downside. I'm not trying to be a zealot at all, I don't use that much open source software, I just think it's funny how irrationally resistant you guys can be.

I have nothing against your emulator at all, open source or not, it doesn't really have any effect on what your emulator does, it's just that with no proof you can understand how people might be skeptical about how accurate an emulator is.

I could make an emulator that ran games, heck, I could copy paste someone else's code, and say it was mine, and say it was cycle accurate, but no one would ever really know, they'd take my word for it that it was cycle accurate.

that's the problem, really, not style of emulator, but PROOF of claim.

panzeroceania wrote:

6/26/2010 4:47:59 PM

I think you guys are misunderstanding me, you can put a very strict licences on source code so that others can't use it.

I wasn't suggesting it so that everyone would use your code, I was suggesting it because I can't honestly know that you aren't just blatantly stealing code unless I can see and compile it myself. With such bold claims, you need proof to back up those claims.

RetroRalph wrote:

6/26/2010 10:42:59 PM

You need to be careful with your implications panzeroceania. Firstly you look like an idiot if you're trying to claim (or even suggest it's a high probability) that RetroCopy is stealing source, have you seen what RetroCopy is? Did I go and steal the GUI? The 3D engine? The graphics shaders? The 3D sound engine? The room editor? Another cycle accurate SMS/GG/SegaE/Genesis VDP emulator that doesn't exist? All these unique things stolen I guess?

There are many downsides to open source, especially for certain projects. I'm not going to be listing them all here because it will help give away the future plan for RC and I like to release info on my own schedule not those of fools with stupid claims.

Waxonator wrote:

6/26/2010 11:14:05 PM

You tell them RetroRalph! You don't have to prove a thing.

MarshMellow wrote:

6/26/2010 11:35:17 PM

panzer if you knew ralph you wouldn't be saying such things. He helped me with my own cycle emulator so he certainly can do it if he is helping others. You dont know also if Ralph has licensed any of the source to other companies, there are many things in RetroCopy that are quite valuable why should he give them away for free? To please a few jealous zealots? In essence what you are saying is ludicrous.

Waxonator wrote:

6/27/2010 3:10:52 AM

Panzer's reasoning = guilty until proven innocent

panzeroceania wrote:

6/29/2010 3:05:14 PM

whoa whoa whoa,

to be honest you all, I don't mind, I'm just showing you what many people think, and it isn't that crazy.

personally I don't care because I am not a developer, and I'd much rather improve the GUI and the way it performs for end users, no need to get hostile, we're all adults here.

panzeroceania wrote:

6/29/2010 3:06:38 PM

I'm still waiting on a response to your previous blog post, if I could mail you a Sega System one machine could you improve the emulation?

RetroRalph wrote:

7/2/2010 11:44:04 PM

Yes I could improve the emulation with the actual machine, but currently have no hardware required to work with such a board. Charles MacDonald may be interested in it though and seems to have the hardware required.

http://cgfm2.emuviews.com/

panzeroceania wrote:

7/4/2010 6:53:20 AM

thanks, I'm looking into acquire one myself, but as you stated, getting the additional hardware to make it operational is an even bigger trick. If I ever do get there (don't hold your breathe) I'll try to contact Charles MacDonald, and also run any tests you would like me to that are within my power, but again, I wouldn't hold your breathe, I'll let you know though.

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